[BIZ TIPS] Addressing Strategy, Fear & Pivoting for Digital Entrepreneurs with Tyler J. McCall

April 28, 2020

This interview is PURE FIRE and I’m beyond grateful to our guest for sharing his incredible expertise with us.

Today we’re talking to Tyler J. McCall.

Tyler is a business and Instagram marketing strategist for online business owners and digital entrepreneurs. He focuses on using Instagram and social media to tell stories, build relationships, and convert followers to fans, drawing from his 10 years of experience in non-profit marketing and community organizing. Since 2015, Tyler has taught thousands of entrepreneurs how to start, grow, and scale their online businesses. He is the founder of the Follower to Fan Society – an online Instagram marketing training program – and of the Online Business Association – the first and only professional association for online business owners and digital entrepreneurs. Tyler is based in Asheville, North Carolina where he lives with his husband Eric. When he’s not coaching or teaching, Tyler enjoys Target runs and road trips that he documents on his Instagram Stories.

Here are just a few of the incredible gold nuggets Tyler is dropping today…

  • Pivoting VS Shifting. Breaking down the differences, and giving clarity on what your business may actually need to do during this time.
  • Facing fear head on and pushing through the perceived judgement around continuing to sell to your market right now.  Why they need you, and why it’s OK!
  • Business Strategy:  Talking short term, intermediate term, and long term game plans.
  • How the current global pandemic is affecting Tyler not only from a business standpoint, but also personally.

This is one of those episodes you may need to listen at least twice to take in the absolute gold that Tyler dropped today. Please tune in, share with someone who needs to hear it, and DM either Tyler or myself with any questions you might have that come up from this discussion.

Don’t forget I’ll be going live on Instagram & Facebook every weekday at 8am ET until the global pandemic / quarantine / isolation is over, whenever that may be. Come join me over there!!

Look for references from today’s episodes?  Find them all here:

Follow Tyler on Instagram: @tylerjmccall


Tyler’s Website

Mind Your Business Podcast with James Wedmore

Brene Brown

Questions?  Comments? Want to connect and chat about this episode? You can email me at info@emilygoughcoaching.com, or DM me over on Instagram @emilygoughcoach or Facebook at Emily Gough Coaching.  I would absolutely love to connect with you and thank you for listening in real life and here any takeaways you had from this or other episodes!.  It makes me day to see you listening to the podcast and fills me up with pure joy. Seriously.  See you on the ‘gram!

If Instagram and Facebook aren’t your jam, send me a good old fashioned email!  info@emilygoughcoaching.com


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Room to Grow Podcast


Hey, Hey, welcome back to the Room to Grow Podcast and you guys, listen, I know I get excited about guests but I am absolutely over the moon to be able to bring you the Incredible Tyler J. McCall today, I absolutely adore him. And above and beyond every incredible thing that he’s going to share in this interview and just how amazing he is as a human. This is actually the second time that we had to record this podcast, because we recorded it right away as soon as the whole COVID situation hit. And that was in the midst of Zoom I think being hit with a huge amount of traffic that it was not expecting and not having adjusted to that yet. And between that and a computer update that I had done right before we recorded. The recording got lost. Tyler was an absolute sweetheart about it. He was so lovely, which just speaks to what an amazing human he is. And he very graciously agreed to record a second time without even batting an eyelash so I have to give him so much credit for that. I have never lost a recording before. So it was a new experience. Anyway, I was blown away at the fact that the first interview was so good, I thought, oh my god, there’s no way that we can actually top this. He actually managed to top it even more so in the second episode. So, in some ways, I’m grateful that that happened because this episode is pure fire. It is so much crucial information that you need to hear if you are an entrepreneur, particularly if you’re an entrepreneur in the online space, but a lot of what he’s going to be talking about is still relevant and can be applied even if you have a brick and mortar business as well. So let me introduce you to Tyler a little bit and then we’ll get into what we’re going to cover in this episode. So Tyler is a business and Instagram marketing strategist for online business owners and digital entrepreneurs. He focuses on using Instagram and social media to tell stories, to build relationships and to convert followers to fans drawing from his 10 years of experience in nonprofit marketing, and community organizing. Since 2015 Tyler has taught thousands of entrepreneurs how to start, grow and scale their online business. And he’s also the founder of the Follower to Fan Society an online Instagram marketing training program, and of the brand new online business association, the first and only professional association for online business owners and digital entrepreneurs. Tyler is based in Asheville, North Carolina, where he lives with his husband, Eric, and anyone who follows him on Instagram is well aware of his enormous love of Target, so I know he’s a little sad right now, but he can’t really go to Target much. Tyler is an absolute gem. I had the pleasure of meeting him at one of the events that he held, this really small intimate event last year, and he is just the cutest man on Instagram and in real life. I just adore him. And we’re going to be going into some really interesting things in this episode. 

So just to give you a taste of what we’re going to dive into today, we’re talking about pivoting versus shifting. I feel as though, if ‘unprecedented’ isn’t the word of 2020, It’s going to be ‘pivot’. We keep hearing that especially as business owners He’s really breaking down for us the difference between whether you actually need to pivot or not, or whether you just need to shift a little bit because there’s a huge difference and I think that a lot of people are feeling the pressure to pivot when it might not actually be necessary. He’s talking to us about pushing through and facing a lot of judgment, that there’s no right or wrong answer here. We’re all just doing the best that we can. Talking about managing the fear around selling, this is huge, and why it is still so important to continue to sell right now. We’re talking strategy for both the short term, the medium term and the long term and how you can start to implement strategy in your decision making right now. He also tells us how he’s coping with this whole situation on both a professional level and a personal level. Honestly, I just absolutely love his entire perspective, and what he’s doing to create a strong sense of community in the online space. I think I even said to him on this interview, that if anyone in the online space was to do something like this, I feel like he’s one of the the perfect people to actually create this type of platform because he’s someone that so many people are drawn to, just because he’s so genuine and he has such an enormous heart and just so much expertise. He’s just full of information so I’m so excited to share this one with you guys. I don’t want to hold this up any longer. So let’s get going with Tyler McCall. The amazing Tyler McCall, who I adore even more if I thought that that was even possible because this is our second time recording and Tyler has very graciously agreed to come back on because zoom lost my recording and I nearly had a heart attack. 

Thank you for coming on for round two.


Tyler  5:41  

Oh my gosh of course! I feel like this whole Coronavirus thing it’s just like an extended Mercury Retrograde like nothing is really working because we were supposed to record earlier this week and we had a crazy monsoon like  tornado hurricanes here and we didn’t have the internet all day, which is like on a normal day not that fun, but we literally can’t go anywhere so it coubley sucks. But I’m happy. I’m happy to be here.


Emily  6:10  

You are such a sweetheart. Oh my gosh, I was dying laughing at your message when you sent me that like an hour before we were supposed to record the second time you’re like, I think I might retitle my life ‘Are You Fucking Kidding Me?” I think that that’s where all of us are feeling right now. So I got you. Oh my gosh. So tell us a little bit about you. Everything that you do and your story. You have an incredible story about how you’ve ended up now running this, you know, million dollar business. I would love to hear more about all of that. Tell us all the things. Everything.


Tyler: 6:46  

Yeah. Oh, thank you one of my favorite topics. I got my start in the online business space back in 2015. I was working full time in the nonprofit world. That’s what I did for all my career. I was in nonprofit marketing and operations management, and I also spent time as a political organizer and community organizer. So I’m fortunate that I spent all the time doing that because I developed so many really great skills for what I do now as an online business owner, but that’s what I used to do. Then in 2015 I started a side hustle. I had a handmade business called Mr. McCall’s Fine Fragrances, which was a room & linen spray that I made on my dining room table at home and sold at craft fairs and trunk shows and on Etsy and at local gift shops and places like that. I started posting about Mr. McCall’s on Instagram and at the time, this was before Instagram stories. This was in the early days of things like Instagram DMS, this is you know, back in the day and I was getting my product into the hands of these people I followed on Instagram, they had all these followers and they were posting about it for free. And I was like wait, this is so cool. Instagram kind of works for business. How interesting. And I took my knowledge from doing that and got my first social media management client at the end of 2015, it was a local gift shop here in Asheville. They were actually my longest running client back when I did social media management. Then 2016 came along and that spring I left my full time nonprofit job, went full time entrepreneur, and ran a digital marketing agency for a couple of years. I started adding on coaching and consulting. I really started specializing in Instagram marketing in particular. And then at the end of 2017, I launched an online membership community called the Follower to Fan Society, and have been working on growing that for the past few years. Heading into 2020 I’m really excited because we’re still running Follower to Fan, we’re still helping folks with Instagram marketing strategy, but I’m starting to grow a little bit and transition in my business and my team and I are working on launching something new later this year called the Online Business Association. Which is the first and only professional association for online business owners and digital entrepreneurs. So we’re working on creating more of a one stop shop for online business owners right now. The whole online business space is very disjointed and clicky, you know, you’re kind of like in your corner, you’re at your table in the cafeteria and no one is really doing anything to bring us all under one umbrella as an industry and create resources and support and training and guidance for how to start, grow and scale online businesses. So that’s what we’re going to be doing through OBA, Online Business Association. So I’m really excited about that. Yeah, that’s about my business. I live in Asheville, North Carolina with my husband, Eric. When I’m not working, I love to go to Target, which I can’t do right now. I love to travel, which I can’t do right now. I love going out to restaurants, which I can’t do right now. Like all my favorite things, I can’t do right now. So we’re just hanging out at home watching a lot of TV, playing video games, and working every now and then too. But yeah, interestingly enough, which I think we’ll probably talk about today, that’s not my number one priority right now. 


Emily 10:03  

Yes, we are going to talk about that today because I think that’s super important. Oh my gosh. Well, I am also missing hugs and you give really great hugs. And I can’t help you right now either. So I know it’s so sad. Yeah. We’ll get through this


Tyler  10:17  

Will we ever go back to hugging people from the internet? 



I don’t know. I hope so. I hope so. I think it’s gonna take time though. I feel like the first few events for the first few months people are gonna be like, ‘Don’t shake my hand’.


Tyler 10:31  

Like, yeah, have a like instant read thermometer for foreheads.


Emily  10:35  

Seriously, it’s gonna take time, right? People are kind of talking about this as though it’s going to go back to normal overnight and I don’t think that’s going to be the case. This is going to take time because we’re being reprogrammed, essentially, like to cross the street when we see other humans. I mean, that’s gonna turn into muscle memory. We’re gonna have to take some time. Oh my gosh. Okay. So everything that you are doing, I mean, I’m such a fan of your work, and I I just think that you have a really beautiful, genuine quality to you, which is something that I so appreciate in people, especially in the online space, because there’s a lot of smoke and mirrors as you’re very well aware. And you can tell when someone is genuine and you are very much that. I have had the pleasure, obviously, of meeting you in person as well. But I think it’s really powerful what you’re doing with this Online Business Association, because you’re so right about it being so clicky. Everyone’s kind of doing their own thing, we’re all spread out all over. And as soon as I heard that you come up with this idea, like, Oh my God, that’s brilliant. Like, why has no one come up with that? Because we need that. We need more collaboration and community and I think that you are the best person to do that, honestly, because you’re so genuine and because you’re a connector that is really good at bringing people from different groups together in a really beautiful way. So yeah, I think it’s really powerful and for anyone who wants to know more about that, I know that you’re still in the process of rolling a lot of it out. But tell us about how people can sort of access some of the information that you’re coming up with.


Tyler  12:09  

Yeah, so one of the things that we did really early on when all of this started happening with Coronavirus is we created a community called Prepared and I actually hosted a week long, live free, It’s not even really a training series It’s more of a conversation and q&a series that is still incredibly relevant as business owners and entrepreneurs are navigating what’s happening right now with COVID-19. So the best thing you can do is go to tylerjmccall.com/prepared  and that’s going to get you over to our prepared Facebook group which is totally free, just request to join. You’ll see the conversations happening in there and we’re actually putting new content in there every single week. We’re putting up new posts every few days and folks that are contributing educational resources and coaching and guidance around navigating Coronavirus and, really having a bigger conversation with business owners beyond just kind of tactical money things or legal things or marketing things and having more conversations about how to navigate your mental health and how you’re taking care of yourself and how to navigate parenting and entrepreneurship at home with the kids being home from school and those types of conversations. So that’s the best place to kind of connect with the content we’ve created over there. And then, you know, as soon as OBA opens up, which will be later this summer, you know, we’ll have more and more information in there so folks can check it out and get started. But yeah, that’s that’s kind of where we saw the most need right now. So that’s where we jumped in first.


Emily  13:41  

Yeah. And you came up with that so quickly, which I think is really powerful. And there’s some incredible resources that you’ve provided in there. And that kind of opens up a bigger conversation that you and I were briefly talking about. If the word of 2020 isn’t ‘unprecedented’, I think it will be ‘pivot’.  It’s like the Friends episode of like ‘pivot pivot’ as they’re trying to get the couch up the stairs. And I think that everyone is getting a little bit thrown. Because it’s a lot of pressure. And it’s also this. Okay, everyone’s telling me to pivot, but where do I pivot? And how do I pivot? And what do I do? And there’s, it’s creating this huge sense of anxiety. And I have absolutely felt that myself. So I’d love to get your thoughts a little bit on that and how you were sort of navigating that and how you’re kind of hoping to provide direction for other people that are maybe struggling with the same issue.


Tyler  14:31  

Yeah, for sure. So it’s interesting. I feel like in the very early days of this crisis, and everything that was happening, I found even myself being a little bit over, I don’t want to say overwhelmed, but being a little bit pressured or pushed in the direction of maybe changing things in my business or thinking about my business differently, then is that the actual reality of having an online or digital business. A lot of what we’re hearing right now in the media online through content that people are creating about business and about whether or not businesses are going to make it how businesses are doing. A lot of that is really related is really information about brick and mortar businesses, about restaurants, about gyms, or about types of businesses where you have to work directly with another human being in person, like a hairstylist or a massage therapist or a nail technician, or wedding photographer, or wedding planner, or an event venue, something like that. And all of those industries are being impacted in huge ways. And if you’re listening right now, and you’re in one of those sectors, you know that your ability to do business has been changed drastically or for some of you even completely eliminated. You can’t do the task that you do to generate an income. And in those situations there’s a really pressing and real opportunity to pivot here and to offer something completely new. When I think about pivoting, I think about, you know, maybe staying in kind of the same sector or industry or niche, but pivoting in terms of what you’re offering, or how you’re offering the delivery of your thing or something like that. So, for example, we’re seeing restaurants that have always been, you know, dine in with maybe some takeout now pivoting. And then like in a restaurant, that’s now saying, Okay, now we’re only offering takeout and delivery. That’s not really a pivot, because I mean, it’s 2020. You can offer takeout or delivery, a pivot will be the restaurant that said, Okay, well, it makes the most sense for us from a financial point of view to only sell ready made, heat and eat, pre made family meals. That’s a pivot, you know, for traditional restaurants, or restaurants that have pivoted from a traditional menu to like a daily, just one type of one entree for the day and that’s the thing they’re doing. That’s a pivot because they are noticing the opportunity to serve people in a different way and also reduce their costs, reduce the need for their workforce, things like that so they can put all their eggs into a different basket. That’s a pivot! Or, for example, the hairstylist or colorist that is now offering at home root touch up kits to their clients, that’s a pivot. Traditionally, their clients would come into the salon for that, now they’re pivoting and they’re creating these fun little at home, touch up kits with instructions on how to do it. That’s a pivot. A lot of business owners are getting really distracted by that and thinking, well, I need to be pivoting, I need to be pivoting my coaching or my product or my service. When in all actuality all you actually really need to be doing is doubling down on what you already do and maybe shifting the messaging or marketing. But you don’t need to completely change what you typically do. I think a lot of business owners are getting lost in that noise. I know in the early days I was feeling a lot of anxiety and fear about Okay, what do I do? I need to pivot into this. That’s just not true. You know what I always do in business is needed now more than ever, I help people make money on the internet, like when I boil it down to what I do. Guess what? People need to learn how to make money on the internet and I can help people do that. So I’m going to double down on what I already know. I think it’s really important for entrepreneurs to think really strategically about where they need to be spending their time and energy right now to get the most return because I think across the board, I don’t know if you’re feeling this Emily, but I know I am and most of my friends I talk to on a regular basis we’re feeling the pressure, we’re feeling lower energy, we’re feeling a lot of us if you maybe consider yourself like, more tuned in or someone that more empathetic or experiences you know, whatever kind of crazy woo woo energy. You may be feeling some heaviness. I know for me there are some days where I just feel completely heartbroken about what’s happening in the world and on days like that I’m not showing up trying to force myself to create content and be this like dog and pony show. So thinking instead of What can I do to get the most return for the least amount of effort right now? How can I be of the most service to my community? And at the same time, how can I just make sure that I hold on and weather this whole situation, because you know, when you and I first recorded this, we first had this conversation two weeks ago, it was a totally different world than it is now. And now we’re living in a world where, you know, most states, at least here in the US have extended stay at home orders for at least another month at this point. And these like reopening the economy strategies that are now being unveiled by leaders. You know, it’s so interesting that the policy was revealed, and it was unveiled here in the US yesterday. And it’s the staggered policy that has these like 14 day increments. So even with this policy, the earliest that things could get back to some kind of normal would still be another month from today. So I just think it’s, I think we’re definitely in this for the long haul. And you and I were talking about that earlier, and, like it’s gonna take a while for things to get back to normal. So business owners need to be thinking strategically about how are you going to weather this for not just another few weeks, but maybe another? Two months? three months, six months? What is that going to look like in your particular niche or industry? Because I think it’s going to be a while before things get back to whatever kind of normalcy they were before/ I don’t know if they’ll ever know if they’ll ever get back to that either. And do we want them to get back to that? That’s another conversation for another day.


Emily  20:28  

No, it’s true, though, because that’s the thing is that, you know, I even I’m seeing people post about things. I was living in Bali for a little while, and a lot of people are posting these memes about, you know, the first plane back to Bali, and it’s like a rave on the plane. And I’m like, but that’s not how it’s gonna go. Nothing in the world is going to go back to the way it was over overnight. It’s just not. And I think that we have to take that into consideration when we’re putting so much pressure on ourselves to do everything right now, it’s actually doing more harm than good. And we’re going to burn out too, because it’s that stress that we’re imposing on ourselves along with all of the other stress, which opens up a conversation about how it’s not great for our immune  system. We’re not doing anyone any favors and we won’t be able to show up the way that we want to show up if we continue at that rate.


Tyler  21:24  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the fact that now going to the grocery store, or even receiving a package at home is a different experience than it was a month ago. I don’t know about you or your listeners, but in our house we get a package, we bring it in, we quarantine it for a few days. We’re doing the whole Clorox wipe, we wipe everything down, we get groceries and bring them in, we’re wiping everything down, washing everything, things that we would have never done before that seemed crazy to do. But just think about how much emotional and physical energy those simple tasks take now. Then on top of that, you’re still trying to create content, run a business, pay employees, pay contractors, serve your clients, respond to coaching calls, respond to inquiries, doing all of that, it’s alot. And I think a lot of business owners just aren’t being honest with themselves about the fact that, okay, well, you’re running on, you know, this adrenaline and maybe you haven’t for the past month or so at this point. But, you know, most adrenal glands are about to crap out, what are you gonna do when you have nowhere to go to get the reprieve or energy that you feel like you need to keep making it, you’re just at home? So yeah, I think it’s definitely a long game. And if anything, it’s just a reminder that in general entrepreneurship is, it’s a long game. There’s no overnight success. I know it looks like it. I know that you know, even hearing my story of saying, so here I am at the seven figure business and blah, blah, blah, but what you don’t know is that in 2015/2016 when I started my business, I was living off of savings, I maxed out credit cards, my husband and I only had one car because our other car was broken down in a parking lot downtown, and we couldn’t afford to get it towed and fixed, you don’t hear all those things when I share my story today, and you don’t know that was five years ago. Right? So it’s a long game. It takes time, it takes energy and I think now’s the time for folks just to get really clear on what is the least amount of effort you need for the biggest amount of return in your business? Then just do that and just not worry about anything else.


Emily  23:34  

Yeah. And getting super clear on that. And it can be so hard because we look at our to do list and we’re like, okay, but there’s this and there’s this and it’s so difficult to just choose those biggest priorities. But you’ve talked about this before at other times, too, about getting really clear on the biggest dial moving tasks, and what is going to give you the biggest return and then that leads into a bigger conversation around. Well, I mean, first of all, this is definitely a marathon, this is not a sprint. Just this whole situation that we’re in, in general is absolutely a marathon. For sure and we have to get really clear on some strategy around what’s our strategy for the short term, you and I kind of talked about this in the last interview, right? Strategy and bigger picture for the medium term, and then the longer term. So I’d love to hear more from you about that too. And how people can sort of start to strategize a little bit more.


Tyler  24:29  

Yeah, and I want to call back a little bit to this idea of the smallest has to make the biggest move or the biggest change in the dial and I think a part of that too is kind of getting into another conversation for another day,  but I think that is really addressing whatever kind of money stories you have, or money mindset issues you have because I think for a lot of people, this has put a magnifying glass on a lot of those really negative or unhealthy money, mindset or money beliefs. A great example of that is that you have to work hard for your money and if you’re operating from that belief that you have to work hard for your money, and that if you don’t work hard, you’re not worthy of the money you’re making, or it’s unfair for you to have that money because you’re not working hard enough, then times like this are going to be really incredibly difficult because you’re going to keep forcing yourself to work harder and harder for the money you’re making. Instead of operating from the point of view of, well, I just have to make the greatest amount of impact with the least amount of effort and then the money comes from the impact I create. It’s a different approach so I hope that’s helpful for folks. So this idea of short term, intermediate term and long term, it’s still really appropriate right now. I think a lot of business owners typically are looking at their business from maybe an annual point of view or a quarterly or maybe a monthly point of view, like, this quarter I’m going to launch this thing or this month I’m going to introduce this offer or this year I’m going to make this much money, whatever it may be. And those plans are great, but in instances like this, which is really a crisis, we need to, in my opinion, pull back a little bit closer and look at short term, intermediate term and long term. So looking at the short term issues in your business, it’s really looking at what are the next big due dates in terms of rents, mortgages, contractor payments, bills, insurance, what are those next big due dates short term, and then what resources do you have on hand to take care of those and if you do not have the resources on hand or if you unfortunately, are in situations like a number of business owners in the US and in Canada, where the resources that are offered now for Coronavirus relief are unavailable to you, because that has become a really common theme unfortunately. And maybe you were waiting on the stimulus or waiting on this loan or waiting on this grant.  Now we’re facing the reality, Emily, of people who were expecting to get this money before the end of April, and they aren’t going to get the money, then May bills are coming due. So what are we going to do? So looking in the short term, what do you need to do to really fill the gap to create some kind of stopgap for yourself, so that you can make it to this next due date, this next time you have to do something. So for some folks, it is honestly just getting on the phone and being in communication with your lenders, your credit card company, your bank, your landlord, your mortgage company, your contractors, whoever it may be, and just explaining what the reality of the situation is, and seeing what you can work out. I know most credit card companies are allowing you to skip payments, they’re waiving late fees, there’s no negative credit reporting, there’s no interest rate, things like that, do what you need to do to buy yourself some time. Then in the short term, what can you do to generate some income? And is there anything that you can do within the next 10 to 15 days to generate income in your business. Is there something you have right now on Google Drive? Is there a recording of a workshop you did? Is there a PDF you created? Is there a little course that you have tucked away in like Teachable or Thinkific or Kajabi that you never really launched, that you could just send an email to your list or show up on Instagram stories or post in your Facebook group and sell this thing? So a great example of that is in our business, we were looking for a really quick cash infusion going into April, because we have a launch coming up at the end of April. And we saw how Coronavirus impacted our revenue in March, we saw a downturn in our ad strategy and the initial impact of stay at home orders. And we kind of saw what was happening there. So we needed a quick cash infusion. So we took a PDF guide that I created last year. It’s called the Instant Income Blueprint, something we typically only give to our members and we put this out for sale on the internet for $47, we promoted, we did ads, we posted on social, Facebook lives Instagram, all those things. Within a couple of weeks, we generated $15,000 in revenue from this $47 product just by talking about it, posting about it, getting it out there. So there are easy ways that you can quickly infuse cash into your business. Now, for us in our business $15,000 kind of feels like a drop in the bucket, because that’s like half of our payroll for like a month. So, you know, for other people. $15,000 is like, okay, you’re gonna be set for like three or four or five months, which is incredible. And it really depends on where you are in business. But for us, it was just a little bit of the pressure valve, it was just a little bit of the pressure off. We’re like, Okay, good. We can keep going, we can keep trucking toward this launch. So that was a short term fix, but that’s also not, that’s not the long term sales and growth strategy necessarily for our business. So we looked at the short term, and then the next is looking at the intermediate term. So let’s think about maybe the next two to four to six weeks, when we get a little bit further down the road. When we get to that next due date for bills, when we get to that next due date for mortgage and rent, when we get to that next benchmark for where we need to have some more revenue or income in our business, what can we do between now and then to get there. So that may be a more thought out or planned out launch of a product or service that could be going to your existing audience and offering something at a discounted price or preferred price or a new offer, maybe beta testing a new idea for those people. For some people, this is the time where you really need to look at pivoting. So for example, the wedding planner that has had all of their 2020 weddings canceled, and now they have no way to generate revenue in the next few months. Well, what do you need to do? Where can you pivot in your business to serve people? You make it to that next benchmark. So looking at the intermediate and then from there, looking at long term, so maybe three to six months from now. And really considering that the decisions you’re making now will impact your ability to get started back up or to reach the goals you have in the long term. So for example, a lot of people in the online business space in particular, a lot of people are making the decision to quickly cut contractors and eliminate contractor rolls in their company, which I get that feels like one of the first places you should cut expenses. But have you considered that six months down the road when things are getting back to some kind of normalcy, and you’re ready to go again, and you try to go and get that VA again, or get that tech VA or get that social media manager again, that you love to work on your team, they’re probably not going to be available, because they probably had to scramble and find work as well. Maybe you were their favorite client and they’ll come back and work for you. But I would just be really cautious about letting people go right now that you know, six months down the road, you’re gonna wish you still have those people on your team because for online businesses, I think the reality of the situation is, our industry is not recession proof and I wish people would stop saying that I don’t think that’s true. But I think our industry is potentially recession delayed or a little bit recession sheltered in that online businesses, we can keep our own economy going independent of what’s happening in the broader economy. One of the best ways we can do that is by keeping our contractors paid, by keeping our experts on payroll, and you may not be able to work with them at the capacity you’ve always worked with them at, but at least keeping them as a part of your team because it’s all so cyclical, right? The money that I pay my Facebook Ads Manager, or my graphic designer or my copywriter, they use that money to then purchase, online trainings and software and the software companies use that money to infuse back into the online business space through grants or through affiliate payouts you know, it’s so cyclical and we’re really fortunate in that our industry can be a little bit shielded or insulated from what’s happening in the broader world now, will it impact our industry? I think it will, I think people who are saying it won’t are a little bit, I think we just need to consider what marketing message they’re trying to convey by saying it’s not going to impact our industry. I think there is a possibility that it impacts the online business space. However, we do have the opportunity to keep ourselves self sustaining inside of the industry. So I think that’s more of a long term play. So is that a helpful kind of thinking about these three different stages? 


Emily 33:40  

Oh my gosh, that’s so so incredibly helpful and I really like that you’re bringing that up too because I’ve heard a lot of people kind of implying that, I saw somebody do a post about “if your business is unaffected by this…” and they were speaking to online business owners, I thought there is no business in the world right now that is unaffected. There are businesses that are booming because of this, there are businesses that are failing because of this but there is no business that is completely insulated, or protected from this in any way, whether positive or negative. And I think that it’s really coming at things from not only an insensitive point of view, but just not even a realistic point of view when you’re saying that it’s unaffected. That’s just not how this is going. But I think that it’s also really important to bring up the fact I’d love to get your thoughts more on on like selling right now, as an online business owner, because this is tough like this is, we want to be sensitive to what’s going on and the fact that some people lost their incomes, but at the same time, there are people who are gaining incomes, there are people who are, you know, maybe they have businesses that are booming right now because they just happen to offer a service that is needed more than ever at the moment, whatever that looks like. That brings up like some money mindset issues as well like what you were talking about, but it is it is tricky right now and there’s a lot of fear around selling and should I? shouldn’t I? should I go ahead with the launch that I had planned? I would love to hear more about that because I think a lot of people are really grappling with that struggle right now.


Tyler 35:17  

Yeah, and look I get it! It feels really scary right now to sell and it can feel insensitive or like you’re taking advantage of the situation but you know, the way I process this in those early days and what I kind of eventually can do this is even just for myself. Honestly the idea is that unless I’m out here buying hand sanitizer and selling it at 10 times the price I paid or, buying face masks and selling them at 10 times the price or creating some kind of Coronavirus branded resort you know. Unless I’m here doing that, I’m not really taking advantage of a situation and you’re not either. I think that, again, this is putting a magnifying glass on whatever thoughts or beliefs we have around money and around sales, and around our worthiness to make money and our worthiness to be paid for our work and our worthiness to be paid what we are worth for our work. So if anything, it’s just kind of adding to maybe some of those thoughts or beliefs that you currently have. But unless you are taking advantage of the situation in some of those ways I mentioned, you’re not being an opportunist, you’re not being opportunistic about the situation. If anything, you probably have a product or service that is of need right now and without showing up and serving your people through your content and by offering that product or service, you’re actually doing those people a disservice if you aren’t selling right now. I know that may sound a little bit harsh or a little confusing to people, but I want you to think about what so many people, this is particularly true if you are in the line of work where people are really looking for what you do right now. So thinking of things like parenting, or fitness or mental health, or nutrition, or business or finances or legal issues or marketing, or mindset or meal planning, you know, all of these things are hot. And you know the number of people right now, Emily, they’re cleaning out their closets and having their whole Marie Kondo moments. It’s crazy. And to think if Marie Kondo, if she were to call Amazon and say stop selling The Magical Art of Tidying Up, we’re not doing it, we don’t want to be opportunistic right now. Yeah, people are cleaning out their closets and they’re looking to her and her resources and her education, her book, to help them do it. Right? It’s a service to those people. So I think for so many of us, people need what we’re doing right now. People need you to keep showing up. They need you to keep creating content. They need your podcasts, they need your Facebook lives, they need your emails. Now, do you need to keep doing all those things? And do you need to put all this pressure on yourself and feel like a horrible human being because you’re finding it difficult to be creative? No, find the balance that works best for you. We were talking about this before we went live but the idea that there’s no right way to respond to trauma and this is a traumatic experience for all of us. It’s a collective trauma that we’re going through, and there’s no right way to respond. Overworking is fine and not working at all is fine. Trying to do a little bit every day and not being able to do anything every day, both are completely fine. Being really inspired to create all the content in the world and not being inspired at all and struggling. You can write a simple response to an email, it’s fine. Both of those things are totally okay. No one is better than the other. But at the same time, you have to figure out again, striking that balance is. What is the least amount of effort for the biggest return in my business right now? How can I have the most impact and create the most income without putting all this additional stress on myself right now when I’m dealing with a traumatic situation. And considering that and selling right now is one of the ways that you can guarantee you will have the biggest impact and create the most income and a lot of times you can do that with the least amount of effort, especially when you’re looking at what you already have in your arsenal. What you’ve already created what you already have access to and to simply offering that and putting that out there in the world. Listen, I’m a big fan of just going into your Google Drive and seeing what you got hanging out, or what do you have on your desktop? Or if you have a product based business? What do you have sitting in your craft room, you know, or like in your back room or your storage room? You could literally just start selling on the internet. It’s an easy transition. And no one is saying that Target is opportunistic right now because they’re staying open and selling. No one’s saying your local grocery store is opportunistic. No one is saying that, well, Amazon is problematic, so maybe they’re not a good example. And it was always a little bit problematic. No one is saying that, like Brooks Brothers, or apron companies, or companies that typically make dresses and T shirts are opportunistic because they completely shifted and started making face masks. No one is saying that they’re opportunistic. They’re doing a public service. They’re helping people. And guess what, they’re still making money. They’re still keeping the lights on, they’re still keeping their employees paid, because they’re showing up and they’re being of service. And for a lot of them, they’ve pared down their operations so the least amount of effort gets the biggest return in terms of impact and then come and you can do the exact same thing in your business.


Emily  40:39  

I hope that everyone rewinds to this section that you just did. I mean, the whole thing is good, but especially this last section, because I want people to really hear and feel on an intimate level, what you are saying, especially tying it into how selling can have such an incredible impact as well. Like a really positive impact, I want people to really grasp that point because it’s not just about putting money in your bank account. Anyone who is selling from a genuine place wants to have a positive impact anyway, and you are actually doing a disservice, like you said, by not selling your service? And as a side note, I’m getting super inspired by you to go through my Google Drive because I’m starting to remember all these things. I really love this. No, I think that’s awesome. And also just really showing kindness to ourselves to like, you know, if, yes, selling is important, and the impact and all of this that’s such an important conversation. But throughout this entire conversation, you’re really tying this into self kindness and showing yourself compassion, which I absolutely love. And I think that there’s a lot of judgment flying around right now, a lot of judgment and in so many different ways and people are scared. And when there’s that much fear that that’s breeding, you know, being cruel to each other in a lot of ways, and some people are upset about small business owners who’ve had to let people go and you put up a really beautiful reminder a week or two ago about, you know, don’t judge what’s happening right now. Because these business owners and everyone in the world right now is having to make really tough decisions. And to not assume that they aren’t putting a huge amount of effort into those decisions and thinking about both sides of it. I think that’s a really powerful reminder.


Tyler  42:37  

It really is. Yeah, you know, I think another reason it’s so vital is because the moment you stop, and this is a really big lesson I had to learn and, and you and I share a mutual mentor James Wedmore he talks so much about really getting through all your money bullshit, because If you don’t it make entrepreneurship next to impossible. Being a financially independent or financially abundant human being on this planet, and having a successful business that allows you to pay other people and have the impact you want, it’s next to impossible until you deal with all your fucked up money beliefs. So much of that is understanding that money is simply energy and energy must flow and the moment you stop selling, is the moment you start cutting yourself off from the ability to have that energy flow through you. And I know this sounds really Woo Woo, I promise I didn’t smoke a blunt before we got on this interview, but it’s very, very true because one of the most powerful illustrations that James ever gave, it’s on an old podcast episode you have to, it’s in like the Wayback Machine of the Mind Your Business Podcast. But James talks about one of the most powerful things you can do around money is start envisioning where your money goes when it leaves your hand and when you spend that money. Have you ever heard that episode about that?


Emily  44:01  

And didn’t he also, wasn’t there some author or something that wrote a book about thanking every single person for everything in their life and it led down this complete rabbit hole of like traveling all over the world basically to thank different people.


Tyler  44:17  

Yes. So the illustration he gives is, you know, going to a restaurant, and when you hand over your credit card or your cash or your check if you know, it’s you know, 1997 and you’re paying for your meal, that money is leaving you. First of all, it’s not really leaving you because it was never yours to begin with. That’s another conversation for another thing about money is moving from you, to the restaurant owner, to the person that waited on you to the cook in the kitchen, to the person that farmed the carrots that are on your plate, to the person that caught the fish that was on your plate, to the person that made your plate. That money is simply flowing out into all those different places. And the moment you stop selling, the moment you cut yourself off from accessing that, the moment that you were no longer able to take that money, and to pay your local grocery store or to pay the person that mowed your lawn. Or when I’m hearing from so many of my friends, and listen, I get it, running a seven figure business, having the resources I have in terms of finances, I’m incredibly privileged. And I’m so grateful. And I understand that. And I have friends and connect with people that are also incredibly privileged in terms of their financial status. And those people are still paying the person that cleans their house, paying the person that watches their kids, paying the people that do things for them around town, paying their assistants, paying employees who are not working right now, because they have the means to do that. And because they understand how powerful it is to keep that money flowing and to keep supporting other people and also not to just be an asshole who’s not, you know, just cutting people off right now. But the moment you stop selling or as long as you start cutting yourself off and your ability to keep doing that. So you have to keep selling


Emily  45:58  


So good. Such powerful reminders in that honestly, because it’s so, the easy choice is to not sell. Like some people would say that no, that’s not because then I don’t have money in the bank. But I’m like, Yeah, but it’s so much easier to just hide, to sit back to take a step back, hide, you know, close the computer, hide behind your screen, whatever you want to do, and just not sell. And it’s much more difficult and nuanced to actually show up, to provide a service for people and to do it in a way right now that is sensitive to what is going on. That’s the hard part. But that’s where we’re kind of separating the herd, is there are the people who are hiding and the people who are showing up and I think that at the end of this, it’s going to be crystal clear who rises to the top. It’s not going to be the ones who are hiding right now.


Tyler 46:48  

Exactly. And I think to it, and I hope people who are listening who maybe feel a little bit triggered by by that or by this like I hope it’s really allowing you to check in with yourself because if the moment this all began and you’re operating from the belief that, well, this is going to be hard, no one’s going to buy what I’m selling, I can’t sell right now, and you haven’t made any money in the past month, well, then those thoughts have created that reality for you, you’ve made those decisions to get yourself into this position. And just as quickly as you made that decision that no one’s going to buy what you’re selling right now, and I can’t sell, you could just change your mind. You can say, people are going to buy what I’m selling right now and I’m going to start selling and guess what, people are going to start buying your shit because you simply changed your mind and you’re operating from this different belief that you’re now showing up and that it is possible for you. But if you are continuing to think, well, this is going to be impossible no one’s gonna buy what I’m selling so my business is gonna go bankrupt and then go out of business, I’m not gonna be able to make it, then that’s what’s gonna happen. Unfortunately, that is what will happen to you. And I think for a lot of folks, we have allowed our fear or our doubt in ourselves to be successful as entrepreneurs, that we’ve allowed this instance, this crisis to give us all the evidence we’ve ever needed that this will never work.  OOOhhhh that’s some cold chills! that’s some Tweet tweeting!



That is!  I just got chills,  I will be sending you a quote card with that one.


Tyler  48:13  

But if you are allowing this moment right now to be the evidence you always look for that this will never work then it will be that evidence. But what if you simply allow this one right now to be the evidence you’ve always looked for that you are more capable than you’ve ever thought you were? to accomplish what you never thought you could achieve? How incredible would that be?


Emily 48:31  

I feel like the universe deleted the first recording so that I could get this on record because there are way too many people that need to hear this right now! You literally, you’re giving me chills because you’re speaking total truth. And there’s so many people who need to hear this reminder and even just the fact like you pointed out that you can make a different decision. You are always only one second away from making a different decision. So if you have been hiding, if you haven’t been showing up, if you’ve been overwhelmed, and you haven’t been selling, you can make a different decision right this second to continue to just start showing up in a different way. And you always have that within your power. Such a beautiful reminder. I think that’s so powerful. Thank you for that teller. Honestly, that’s that’s really good! My gosh, amazing.


Emily  49:20  

Okay, so I mean, you’ve covered so many incredible things. Is there anything that you feel that you want entrepreneurs to know most about dealing with these trying times that we maybe haven’t covered yet? Like, is there anything that you see happening that maybe isn’t being discussed enough or anything like that, that we haven’t already touched on?


Tyler  49:40  

Gosh, let me think

I mean, I think the last thing I can say is that if, if you’ve made it for at this point a month or so into, you know, this pandemic and social distancing and you’ve made it this far without speaking about what’s happening, without if you’ve made it this far being radio silent, falling off the face of the earth, stopping posting on social media or emailing or things like that, then I really want to encourage you to find it within yourself, and I get how difficult it is right now because I mean I’m in a launch right now we’re in a pre launch and and we’re doing all this stuff to promote and launching and promoting requires a ton of content creation. And I get the struggle because I’m struggling with it too. I’m struggling with creating the content. However, I want to encourage you to find it within yourself somewhere somehow to get back in the saddle. To start creating content again to start showing up again for your people because they need you, they desperately need you. If anything, this entire situation has proven that we are desperate for leadership, and that the traditional place, this is huge. The traditional methods with which we find leaders have proven, at least here in the US, to be ineffective, to be insecure, and to not give us the things that we need in terms of leadership. Think about it this way. Why have people been watching the news as much as they have? Why are they watching press briefings? Why are they tuning it? You know, for like, for me, why am I tuning in every day to my local health department’s daily media update? People that I don’t even know, I would have never listened to them before. Why? Because I’m looking for leadership. I’m looking for someone to tell me, ‘this is what’s happening. It’s going to be okay. We’re taking care of it.’ We’re all looking for that. And for a lot of folks, they’re not finding that security and the comfort that they’re looking for. In the traditional places, they would go for leadership and the media and politicians and the government, whoever it may be. They’re not finding that, that’s the reality of the situation. So they’re turning to folks like you and I. Now that does not mean that you and I need to become Coronavirus correspondents and play at you know, epidemiologists on Facebook actually, the worst thing you can do is read one news article and then be an expert in the spread of viruses and start, you know, spewing bullshit on the internet. But people are looking to folks like you and I, for leadership, leadership in their home, in their business, in their mental health, and their nutrition, and their health journey and their parenting and how to organize the closet, right people are looking for leadership. And if you are not showing up right now, you are missing out on an incredible opportunity to be a service to your people in a way that you have never been of service to them before and you will probably never be able to serve them again. So now’s the time to step up and do something. Again, doesn’t mean you have to create content all day every day, it doesn’t mean you have to do what Emily and I are doing in our businesses, you can find the right thing for you and your people. But if you’ve made it this far without showing up, without speaking out, without saying something about what’s happening, if you just been posting your pre planned Instagram content for the past month and not updating it at all to speak to what’s going on with COVID-19 girl, WTF, like, let’s get it together. Talk about what’s going on in the world. Right? 


Emily 53:36  

And it can be hard to know where to start. Because if you’ve been radio silent for this long, then you’re like, well, what the fuck do I say now? Like now It almost looks like Oh, she’s decided to get her shit together. And I think that just, it’s like ripping off a band aid. I think just dive in. Just say something related to it. You can start with something just as simple as we’re in it. certain times. That’s, that’s true, that’s accurate. And then just go from there.


Tyler  54:05  

Definitely, yeah. Or tell the story of why you felt like you had nothing to share nothing to offer for the past few months.


Emily  54:10  

Yes, exactly. Because I think there’s so many people who can relate to that because all of us don’t really know what we’re doing. Like, I don’t pretend to have all the answers here. I’m just talking about whatever’s going through my head, that particular moment and trying to say it from a place that gives somebody hope, or, you know, plant a seed of something or helps alleviate some doubt. Maybe it’s something that is going to offer some kind of service, but you don’t have to rewrite the book here on how to support people. It’s just showing up and treating people as human beings. That’s what it all comes down to. That’s it. Yeah.


Tyler 54:47  

You know, like, one of the things I love that our queen Brene Brown talks about, do you love Brene Brown?


Emily 54:53  

Who doesn’t? I think, sometimes about what my life would be like without Brene Brown, and I can’t even imagine


Tyler 55:02  

If you’ve heard her talk, if you’ve read, I think her latest book is Braving the Wilderness. 

Or is it the Dare to Lead? It’s one of the one of them. I don’t know, there’s so many good ones. But one of the things she talks a lot about is that one of the most vulnerable things that we will ever do as human beings, is be present and available for someone while they’re grieving. And how, because in those moments, you’re so incredibly vulnerable because there’s literally nothing you can do. When someone’s grieving the death of another person, you can’t bring that person back. You can’t take their pain away. If you’ve experienced death or loss or grief, you can somewhat identify with what they’re experiencing, but grief is such a unique process for each person. And I think this is one of those opportunities where it requires immense vulnerability to simply show up and say, ‘I don’t know what I’m doing. I know you don’t know what you’re doing, but we’re all collectively grieving right now’. Like, we have all lost something in the past month. Some people have lost a human, they’ve lost their husband, their child, their parent or spouse, a friend, a colleague, someone they love dearly, and they are experiencing immense grief. Other people have lost that sense of connection. They’ve lost relationships. They’ve lost in person touch, they’ve lost intimacy, they’ve lost a normalcy, they’ve lost their high school or their college graduation, or their spring break trip or their wedding or their honeymoon, right. Everyone has experienced this collective loss right now in that collective grief. And it requires immense vulnerability for you right now to step up as a leader. And just saying, ‘I’m here, I don’t know what I’m doing, but I’m here for you. And I’m going to figure it out as I go along’. But at the end of the day, people are going to remember that you actually stood up, and you said something. They’re going to remember that a lot more than you not saying anything, or pretending like this didn’t happen. So it’s really again, it’s all about choice. You have the choice right now, to step up to, stand out and to say something. It doesn’t have to be perfect. It doesn’t have to be right. But I think your people need to hear from you.


Emily 57:14  

Beautifully pu,t beautifully put, oh my gosh. Tyler tell everybody where they can find you and connect with you. Obviously I’ll reference all the things in the show notes as well and I know that by the time this airs, you’re also going to be launching Follower To Fan which is super exciting. So tell us all the things.


Unknown Speaker  57:30  

Yeah, so Instagrams the best place to find me @TylerJMcCall. You can hang out with me over there. The week that this airs the doors to our membership community the Follower To Fan Society are open. So if you are an entrepreneur or business owner and you’re looking for support with Instagram marketing, if you want to learn my tried, tested and proven system for turning your Instagram account into a reliable and predictable sales machine without posting pretty pictures, without stressing about hashtags without having to spend hours a day on Instagram, You should definitely check out Follower to Fan, you can go to followertofansociety.com. You can learn more there and you can join us. And my brand new podcast The Online Business Show is launching in just a few weeks. So make sure you check that out wherever you listen to podcasts. Our trailer will be out on Monday, May 4, and then Monday, May 11 we’re dropping our first batch of episodes. So just search for The Online Business Show wherever you listen to podcasts starting in May, and you can hear me in your ear holes every single week.


Emily  58:29  

Okay, first of all, I’m so excited. Secondly, I love that your trailer is dropping on May the fourth because like May the fourth be with you!



 Oh my god, you’re right. That wasn’t even intentional, but I love that!


Emily  58:41  

Bravo Tyler, Bravo. Okay, I just have one last question I always wrap up with which is if you could offer people one piece of advice you’ve offered so much amazing goodness today, but if you can offer people one piece of advice on growing into the best possible version of themselves, what would it be?


Tyler  58:59  

Oh, What did I say last time? I’ll just say what I needed to hear about a year or so into my entrepreneurial journey. And as we know, entrepreneurship is like the ultimate high contact personal development sport. The sooner you can admit you don’t know everything, the sooner you’ll be able to get the results that you’re after. That being a know it all isn’t cute, it isn’t sexy, and it is not a habit of successful people. So empty your brain, be open to new ideas, new beliefs, new concepts, and stop pretending to be know at all.


Emily  59:50  

I absolutely love that. I actually just did an Instagram post a few days ago about how important it is to remain coachable. And that somebody asked if they could teach me how to do something better. And I was like, hell yes, please teach me all the things I want to know everything I’m doing wrong. Whereas some people would get kind of offended and get their backup about it. And I’m like, you tell me everything I’m doing wrong. And I want to know all of the things that I can do differently.


Tyler  1:00:16  

A couple of weeks ago, I got a random text from a friend and all the text said was ‘Can I give you some advice?’ And before I even heard back from her, Emily, I was in this like, spiral of fear and judgment and like, What is she going to give me advice about? Is it about my business? Is it about my post? Did I spell something wrong? Is this incorrect? Is my email messed up? What am I doing? And it was just simply some advice related to something completely different that actually had nothing to do with me. It was more of like, she should have said, Can I give you a tip? But she said advice, and that word advice sent me spiraling. And then that was a good moment for me to check in and be like, why was I so triggered by her offering to give me advice? What is that? What am I saying to myself about what advice means? What it means for someone else to give me. So just further proof that you know the journey is never over and it doesn’t get easier and actually things just get harder the longer you go back


Emily  1:01:17  

Tyler is so grateful you’re always such a delight. I tell people who don’t know who you are and like you need to go follow Tyler he’s the cutest man on Instagram. And he has incredible information to share like I just I adore you and I’m so grateful for you taking the time not once but twice. And truly this one I didn’t think that we could top the first one I you did it you talk to the first one so I’m overjoyed.


Tyler 1:01:41  

Thanks for having me again. And look and we’ll do it again sometime.


Emily  1:02:08  

Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. I’m so grateful you took the time and it means the absolute world to me. For any references in the episode and all show notes, be sure to jump over to roomtogrowpodcast.com, and if this episode touched your heart, it would mean so much if you would take a quick second to hit subscribe, write a review and share on social media or with someone who really needs to hear today’s message. It makes such a difference to keep this podcast going so I can continue to bring you amazing content and absolutely incredible guests. Be sure to tag me on Instagram over @emilygoughcoach so that I can thank you in real time for listening and connect with you. We’re back every Tuesday and Thursday with brand new episodes and I’m looking forward to growing with you


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